Harradine - don't you understand?  It was never about people on this site not believing in science.  I can only speak for myself as others are quite capable of speaking for themselves, but I am far from dead inside - I just don't think in your way and believe all the things you believe.  

It was always about the way you spoke down to people on this site - right from the beginning you have talked to us as if we were inferior and you got people's backs up. There are ways of getting your message across but insulting people means that they quite often don't hear your message because they are too angry.

Even this last message reads like despair at our ignorance.  I admire passion in people for the work that they do, but I don't always share their passions or even agree with them.  That's life and that's what makes it interesting.  I really enjoy an exchange of ideas but I object to being told I'm an idiot if I don't believe wholeheartedly what someone else is telling me - what their truth is.  Surely freedom of speech is what our forefathers fought for?

Science can explain a lot I know, but there are still times when it can't.  I remember some years ago a labrador had a number of puppies - one of which was pale green.  No one could explain it - Mother Nature having a laugh I suppose telling us that we don't know everything.

 So please, have your ideas, tell us about them, disagree with ideas on here to your heart's content but, more importantly - be nice!!  To quote Mary Poppins - "a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down!"

Thanks

Sue 

Sue,

 I'm pretty sure I understand.  Like I said, (again) I apologise for any past aggression.  Its tough hearing that people drink h202. If that's what they want to do, good luck to them.  But no one seemed to be telling them about acute and chronic effects of severe oxidative damage.   Whoops,. does that sound like science?  Do you know what oxidative free radicals do to DNA, proteins, etc?  Its pretty dramatic damage. Chemical harm. 

 I am not speaking down to anyone.  That's the beauty of science - I do not rely on faith, opinion, attitude or prejudice.  I rely on one thing only.  Evidence.  That's all.  Nothing controversial.  Just evidence.  [I think I have been perfectly clear about that having posted here for a long time.]

Sorry Sue - I'm sitting on one hand only!! Never smile at a crocodile; no point in being reasonable; while he's aplogising to you he's putting us down in another subject (see above). I sense hostility towards women there! Note that he had no suggestions or answers for that girl, even though she's mutilating herself so she looks like she comes out of the pages of those girlie mags that men so love to buy (maybe that's where he gets the idea that someone who has breast implants becomes a 'stunner'). He just wanted another opportunity to take a dig at us. And, hey, didn't 'science' create us women to have breasts that droop and hair under the arms? Men have droopy bits too - and most of them so unprepossessing as to not be worth an ogle. They seem to forget that while judging women......
He still goes on about people drinking h2o2. He hasn't chosen to see that that it is just drops of FOOD GRADE that go into water - or that, despite what it says on the paper in front of him - they are alive and much healthier. He's not interested in learning - just in being right. Granted, not all scientists fiddle with test results of mercury in vaccines or the devastation that Gardasil is causing young girls for their pharmaceutical (high paying) masters - nope, there are others who have contributed to the nuclear side and weapons or their shields, so that now depleted uranium is floating around in nano-particles causing quiet havoc to our systems.
Letting go of his beliefs at this point would make H. feel like he's drifting off into a black void - where the scientists haven't gone yet. It should weigh heavily on him that they are responsible for the destroying of this planet; if it were still an organic world men would still be fighting hand to hand and getting tired before doing too much damage, and this generation of children would not be chemically overloaded, causing their systems to go into meltdown. Yep, proud profession. As I said, ignoring him will bore him and encourage him (hopefully) into going off and latching on to another non-medical site.

No - I've got a better idea - we could just say to him: "You could be right". There's nothing to argue against there and nothing to concede. And now this hand is going back under my ischial tuberosity and staying there! See, I know scientific words too......

Harradine,

Acute and chronic effects...chemical harm...damage to DNA and proteins...sounds like the effects of chemo to me but I don't see you criticising that.

Robin

 

---

Robin Allan
Chek Practitioner
Natural Health Coach

http://www.robinallan.com


robin_allan@hotmail.com

07967-366470

Hi Robin,

I am critical of any treatment, pharma, alternative, all of them.  Everyone should be.  All treatments have risks and can cause harm- anything that actually works will always have side effects.  The question is, are those side effects worth risking based on the benefit you will gain?  For chemotherapy, sometimes (but sadly not always).  That's because cancer can be about as hard to treat as it gets.  And of course there are lots of cancers, some respond well to chemo, others just don't.  Where there really is no chance of successful treatment, chemo is not used.  In that case I guess anything is worth a try. But for other cancers chemo really has made people well again.

If h202 did actually work, and could be should to have a genuinely beneficial effect, then it might be worth the risk of all the harm it will do.  But has that been shown?  Has it actually been looked into and demonstrated?  Or it is simply advised on websites?  You can find people advising anything, that doesn't mean it works. When you look at the list of ailments it has been claimed to treat (cancer, AIDS, alzheimers) doesn't that ring alarm bells that maybe, just maybe, these claims might be over inflated?  Especially when no one has actually shown it to be effective as anything other than a powerful detergent (which it is). 

If drinking h202 were shown to genuinely treat or cure an illness and that the side effects were worth it, then its an evidence-based treatment and it should be used.  When I spoke to a lady at one website selling it, she advised me to inhale nebulised h202 for asthma.  Now, that's a very specific health claim.  Has that been shown to actually work?  Or would I be risking serious harm to already unwell lungs for no reason at all?  Unless one knows for sure, it would be irresponsible to sell it to people and advise people to use it, wouldn't it?  Isn't that your criticism of pharma also?  Its a perfectly reasonable question to ask of any treatment. I commend it.  But don't just reserve that skepticism for pharma or alternative medicine.  Apply it to any health claim made.  Those that work will shown that they can work and that's easily tested.  Those that don't are not worth risking the side effects for.  That's why, eventually, all health claims come down to evidence.  Then we may argue over what is deemed an acceptible level of evidence.  Advise from a website?  Word of mouth? 

We all decide for ourselves what level of evidence we will accept. But I doubt anyone would use a pharmaceutical treatment if it was based solely on a drug company simply telling people on its website that it works but had never been tested (which is illegal under the Medicine Act).  But no so h202 (which is completely unregulated).

I'm not for or against any source of health advice.  If something works it works-wherever it comes from.  But the key is in the evidence being there that it does work and, personally, word of mouth or advise on a website is not a high enough standard of evidence for me.  Perhaps others disagree, and thank god they are free to follow any advice they wish. 

Hi Robin
Our H. keeps using the emotive word 'drinking' bleach when it's just a few drops. He says people promote it with no proof, but that's just him going off half-cocked as usual, because I've gone back on the Gangrene posts (where it started) and I quote:

"I know this sounds absolutely daft but I have drunk hydrogen peroxide and have met a woman who cured her cancer as well as her dog's cancer ingesting hydrogen peroxide.

  .... my husband's uncle swore by it - drank it and used it for absolutely everything.  I must admit I thought he was a bit crazy for doing it and I honestly don't know if it had any benefit or not but he lived until he was 94 and was still running for buses at the age of 86, so who am I to judge?

....some people have ingested the food-grade h.p. (and that includes my mother and my brother)" - and this last input was by ME.

If he checked out the YouTube sites, he would listen to survival stories accredited to it, but he doesn't want to, because that would destroy his theory that nobody has 'drunk' it and lived to tell the tale. 

H. would be much better occupied by going on the scientific sites and fighting to clear up their dirty habits- like putting life-threatening chemicals in sunscreen lotions, and causing coral reefs to die when the washed-off sunblock chemicals settle over them (over 4 tonnes now in our waters), or the GE seeds ruining Indian farmers lives and destroying Nature's eco system, and all the household cleaners getting under our skin and in our waterways, and creating false breasts that he seems to like which leak into women's chest cavities ... and then a few 'death-wish' people safely ingesting h.clor. won't seem like such a big deal to him. As far as I'm concerned he's a nut and we're just peachy..........

More info to help you all make better decisions about the swine flu vaccine:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/08/11/Swine-Flu-is-NOT-the-Problem---It-is-the-Vaccine-that-May-Harm-or-Kill-You.aspx

Robin

---

Robin Allan
Chek Practitioner
Natural Health Coach

http://www.robinallan.com


robin_allan@hotmail.com

07967-366470

This will cheer you up and help restore some faith in governments...the Czech government has stopped talks with Baxter about getting their Swine Flu Vaccine because they cannot guarantee its safety and who would be liable for compensation for any side effects:

http://blogs.healthfreedomalliance.org/blog/2009/08/05/czech-republic-cancels-baxter-swine-flu-vaccines-after-baxter-refuses-to-guarantee-safety/

This is very understandable,as in February this year,Baxter sent flu vaccine to 18 countries,including the Czech Republic,that were contaminated with the Bird Flu Virus...it was the Czech's who discovered this after ferrets they injected with the vaccine died.

Seems the Czech Government don't want blood on their hands by using Baxters poisons...

Hopefully this will be the start of more governments demanding that drug companies be held accountable for the effects of their products.

Well done the Czechs!!!

It will be interesting to see if pressure is put on the Czech government by the WHO (World Harm Organisation) to accept the vaccines...the agenda doesn't take "NO" for an answer and it is clear they want whatever is in the swine flu vaccine in our bodies...microchips,viruses,cancer,who knows?

Robin

---

Robin Allan
Chek Practitioner
Natural Health Coach

http://www.robinallan.com


robin_allan@hotmail.com

07967-366470

Robin, I am so impressed at how you find all these sites - and this Czech one to give us hope (I've sent it to the Dept of Health back home). And here's what I found on the Natural News site:

 Recombinomics, a viral/vaccination research and tracking group`s website, this July 8, 2009 commentary, reports: "... resistant Novel H1N1 in Saskatchewan Raises Concerns". "This new influenza . . . has been combined with two genes from the H1N1 seasonal flu," said Dr Frank Plummer, scientific director-general of the national microbiology laboratory in Winnipeg. Dr Plummer noted that this mutation may make it almost impossible for current pharmaceutical flu remedies to cope with this new strain of Swine Flu. You can view that commentary here: http://www.recombinomics.com/News/0...

The New York Times reported in a January 8th, 2009 article titled "Major Flu Strain Found Resistant to Leading Drug, Puzzling Scientists". The article goes on to explain how throat swabs for common flu infected patients showed a higher rate of resistance to pharmaceutical flu remedies this year than last year. Read it yourself here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/h...

Despite all this, the government wants you to believe that only the flu remedies of Big Pharma are appropriate for curing Swine Flu. They want you to believe this so much, the FDA recently posted warnings, with enforcement penalties, to curb anyone from saying there is any other natural product that can cure H1N1 (Swine Flu).
Details on the FDA ruling here: http://www.naturalnews.com/026473_t...

In an article posted on the website Homeopathy for Everyone, four Mexican Homeopathic doctors posted their first hand observations on the 2009 Mexican flu, and revealed the exact protocol they used to cure those afflicted under their care. The doctors who reported these findings from Mexico City, in May of 2009 are: Est. Luis Jamil Bonilla Galicia, Dr Oscar Alberto Legaria Garcia, Dr Emmanuel Alvarez Lorenzo, and Dr Fernando Dareo Francois Flores.
These doctors included historically documented observations regarding the 1918 flu pandemic. For historical references they used "... the thesis written by Dr Manuel Mazari to obtain his qualification at the Escuela Libre de Homeopata de Mexico: "Short Study of the Last Influenza Epidemic in Mexico City (1918)",as well as reports published by the Ministry of Health, news published in the media in general, and some clinical cases mentioned by homeopathic physicians"

This virus should be called the Two-Legged Swine Flu..

Cheers, Heidi 

Harradine, I must admit you shoot yourself in the foot sometimes. I was pitching hard for childhood vaccination on another thread (and at least three of the posters there will recognise me, I'm sure - hi SueEBE, KiwiGal, and Robin!). But you expressed yourself quite well here - if your goal was to create a polarity response ensuring that other posters here would defend their "irrational" beliefs till someone else pried their keyboard out of their cold, dead hands. You have a right to be proud of what you've done but you'd get farther in some ways if you practiced humility. However, I have had my own moments of "foot in mouth disease", so I can't condemn you out of hand.

I'm on this blog because I found What The Bleep Do We Know fascinating, and tracked down a number of the people in the movie. One was Lynne McTaggert - on this blog. I agree with you about the value of scientific methodology, but I also have experienced some phenomena personally that science cannot (yet) explain. Instances of precognition and clairvoyance - and I was right, but I can't prove I have those abilities because the knowledge comes to me, I can't produce it on demand (best way I can explain it).

I have an innate ability to do "healing touch", but I don't know how I can prove it scientifically. I reduce pain and inflammation through sending energy through my hands and 'talking' to the person's body, reminding it of what its healthy state is like. Is it a placebo effect? Maybe. Is it the subject's desire to say what I want to hear? Maybe. But the fact is, the people I healed have been astonished by how much difference I made, and how long it lasted. Perhaps I can't prove it, because all my evidence is anecdotal, but I believe my experience was valid and could be measured or tested if we only knew how.

And Harradine - sometimes a good "footy rub" is the best cure for pain and swelling in the feet! Fact, not fancy. Manual lymph drainage and muscle massage. It may not be what you call science, but it works, on several levels. I'm thinking you yourself need a good footy rub to change your mind on that one. ;-)

 

There is much circulating about the possible? probable? effects of being forced / mandatory vaccination with a new/novel vaccine which is untested for long term effects............. the following is yet another warning

H1N1 (SWINE) FLU GENOCIDE LITIGATION:
A SPECIAL REPORT, August, 2009
by Dr. Leonard Horowitz


Dear Healthy World Member,

CLICK HERE to read a SPECIAL REPORT compiled by doctors, scientists, and clergy that rebuke the flu vaccination agenda as genocidal.

Dozens of people mailed me this week regarding this report and lawsuits filed to help save lives by exposing, and stopping, the advancing flu vaccine GENOCIDE advanced internationally by governments and BigPharma.

The solid evidence presented in these suits is compelling, especially the scientifically-proven toxic impact of known flu vaccine ingredients (including mercury, aluminum, squalene, auto-immunogenic foreign proteins, and carcinogenic genetic materials).

When you think about this sudden onslaught of litigation, you have to wonder why there has not been more collaboration in this direction years ago.

The main answer lies with one piece of legislation, advanced by mostly one woman, Barbara Loe Fisher, chief of "Controlled Opposition" for BigPharma, undermining litigations for vaccine injury compensation through the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) sponsored National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986.

Nearly everyone believes this Congressional Act was "a good thing." In fact, this action was a covert operation that tied the hands of families and compensation attorneys making it nearly impossible to effectively sue drug companies. BigPharma became indemnified against such litigation because of the Act. In essence, this act gave free license to kill and maim people via vaccines to drug industrialists under the guise of "grassroots" legislation.

It is bizarre that few people realize we are dealing with state sponsored, consumer supported, GENOCIDE. This "politically incorrect" "G-word," is defined as the "mass killing, or enslaving, of people for profit, politics, and/or ideology." So far, vaccine injury activists have feared using this word because those who do are labelled as "radicals" and censored.

I am a classic example of this betrayal. For the past fifteen years I have been censored and slandered by so-called "anti-vaccination" leaders allied with NVIC president, Barbara Loe Fisher, who considers me "radical," because I dared herald this truth. Now a few leaders in the anti-vaccination movement have finally begun to use this "G-word" to describe what is actually happening.

Even more liberating, . . . litigation against GENOCIDE demands use of the single federal law that condemns this criminal manipulation of our population as you'll read below. . . .


ADVANCING LAWSUITS

Recently, physician attorney Mayer Eisenstein, a student of the Dr. Robert Mendelson, the first doctor to use this term, "iatrogenocide" to describe medical mass murder, told me "Len, in the last few months you have been vindicated. No one can call you 'radical,' anymore!" Then, he celebrated with me zero cases of autism in his 20,000 family pediatric practice because he condemns vaccination as "medical malpractice."

A few years ago a study of Amish families showed autism rates much like Dr. Eisenstein demonstrates in his practice. Anyone with any common sense would compare these two scientific cohorts against vaccinated populations of children to evidence GENOCIDE that federal officials conservatively estimate strikes 1-in-150 families. (More recent reports put the rate of vaccine-induced mercury-related autistic spectrum disorder at around 1-in-65 families.)

With the flu vaccines advancing a related genocidal depopulation agenda, the most correct American statute to apply here is US Code Title 18, Crimes and Criminal Procedure, Chapter 50A, Section 1091. Genocide. This direction comes to us from veteran US Constitutional attorney, Larry Becraft. Attorney Becraft's justified concern is that we put our best foot forward and not have pro se plaintiffs who know too little about law and set legal precedents that are unjustified by the evidence of genocide before us.

A correctly crafted lawsuit "can be important, if put together correctly. . . . No federal law exists that even remotely pretends to claim authority to administer some compulsory vaccination program in the States. . . . The legal authority to do all this exists in the States. While they may take cues from Uncle Sam and the WHO, the States are the ultimate authority regarding this issue," attorney Becraft counsels. "Lawsuits seeking temporary restraining orders (TROs) and preliminary injunctions need to be supported by valid, sworn evidence, and not rumors, hearsay, and information pulled from the Net, all of which is inadmissible."

Thus, this SPECIAL LITIGATION REPORT is being sent to you with LOVE from yours truly, along with my colleague Dr. Gabriel Cousins, who with dozens of concerned collaborators contributed so that: 1) you do not do anything stupid, like rushing to your medical deity (MD) or "Safeway" supermarket to get a deadly shot of flu bioweapons; and 2) have the basic information to advance successful litigation and grassroots activism against government genocidalists.

CLICK HERE TO LEARN WHAT WORLD LEADING DOCTORS, SCIENCE EXPERTS, AND RELIGIOUS LEADERS HAVE COMPILED TO REBUKE THE FLU VACCINE GENOCIDE OF 2009.


CONTROLLED OPPOSITION

NOW, you may have noticed at this URGENT time when "We the People" need honest and responsible leadership, it seems every one of our vaccine-risk-awareness "leaders" are being attacked for one reason or another. For example, Jane Burgermeister was recently disparaged by Dr. William Deagle. Likewise, Alex Jones, Dr. Rema Liebow, and I have been attacked for allegedly working for the Illuminatti. My latest detractor, oddly enough, is Dr. Joseph Mercola, who "banned" me from further communication and collaboration following a justified e-mail I sent him concerning Barbara Loe Fisher and the NVIC's forthcoming vaccination conference in which Dr. Mercola is scheduled to speak.

Ms. Fisher's group is "pro-vaccine pro-choice," and has been since its fraudulent inception. It was substantially directed by Big Pharma interets, and continues to operate today as "controlled opposition." The best example of this deceptive genocidal manipulation is Ms. Fisher's steadfast promotion of her credit for leading the NVIC, "America's Vaccine Safety Watchdog," to advance the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986, that has devastated 2-out-of-3 injured families despite billions of dollars in compensation monies are available for these honestly damaged children.


THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE!

CLICK HERE TO READ how Ms. Fisher compares with Nazi propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels, and the letter I sent to Dr. Mercola that moved him to terminate our previously constructive and amicable dialogue. His writing appears at the bottom of this new FLUscam.com article: The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC): A Case Study in Deception for Controlled Opposition.

I am not publishing this to air anyone's "dirty laundry," but to exorcise the CONTROLLED OPPOSITION through which you, the American people, and especially leaders in this vaccine risk awareness movement have been harmed. Frankly, only the truth shall set us free. IF the leaders among us can't be trusted to candidly discuss GENOCIDE, and the fundamental constraints of CONTROLLED OPPOSITION that advance it to burden us, this leaves you, exclusively, to develop personal discernment as to who or what you can trust.

I have said this many times for years, you need to do your due diligence and become an informed person capable of making up your own mind and making your own smartest decisions. This is what is needed to evolve Divinely, psycho-socially and metaphysically. So rather than trust anyone else, seek to trust yourself and your Divinely-guided intuition.

To discern any topic, you need to READ all the pros and cons about the subject as published by ALL political factions. Then, the "TRUTH" can be discerned because factual consistencies will emerge to form the "whole picture." This has been my main method of discernment for three decades.

Guillain-Barre and vaccination       http://www.whale.to/vaccines/gbs.htm
[back] Vaccine disease  [back] Guillain-Barre

Package insert (Hep B)

Citations

[2009 may] The case of Sam Goldstein and the swine flu vaccine Within a month Sam Goldstein was dead. He was hospitalized shortly after the first tingling, then paralysis spread throughout his body. He died of pneumonia, a complication of Guillain-Barre, on Jan. 15, 1977. Between 24 and 32 people died of illnesses related to the vaccine, and an estimated 500 people developed Guillain-Barre syndrome. The feared pandemic of swine flu never materialized.

[2008 Oct] B.C. man paralyzed after flu shot warns of risks  The neurologist diagnosed Ryan with Guillain-Barré syndrome, an autoimmune disease that attacks the nervous system.  He spent the next 10 weeks recovering in hospital, including three weeks in intensive care, barely able to breathe or eat for himself.  "My face was paralyzed. I had no feeling inside my mouth. I couldn't feel my tongue. My left eye wouldn't close so it had to be taped shut to sleep," he said. The illness progressed into a lifelong condition known as chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy (CIDP, and a year later he remains heavily medicated, unable to work, and has memory problems.  Although the disease is in remission, he is not expected to make a full recovery, and the chronic condition could return at any point in the future.

[2009 may] Fear of a Swine Flu Epidemic in 1976 Offers Some Lessons, and Concerns, Today About a week after getting the swine flu shot, she recalled, “I was so weak I couldn’t push down the toaster button.” She spent a month in the hospital, paralyzed from the neck down, before gradually recovering.

A warning that the new swine flu jab is linked to a deadly nerve disease has been sent by the Government to senior neurologists in a confidential letter.

The letter from the Health Protection Agency, the official body that oversees public health, has been leaked to The Mail on Sunday, leading to demands to know why the information has not been given to the public before the vaccination of millions of people, including children, begins.

It tells the neurologists that they must be alert for an increase in a brain disorder called Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS), which could be triggered by the vaccine.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1206807/Swine-flu-jab-link-killer-nerve-disease-Leaked-letter-reveals-concern-neurologists-25-deaths-America.html#ixzz0OWyMFtPO

Hi laura2

You might be interested in finding a more structured channel for your talents. Check out BodyTalk (www.ibaglobalhealing.com). Click on Practitioners or Instructors, then Country, and find someone near you to have a chat to.

You have not had an answer from Harradine; I sincerely hope this means he has either given up ,or learnt something .. and either way has gone on to more scientific pastures where his self-professed talents will be more appreciated.

Cheers Heidi 

Hi Laura - I was very interested to see what brought you to this site.  I also found "What the bleep do we know" fascinating.  My reasons for having problems with the "pure science" and everything having to be proved and quantified is that I have been a spiritual healer for over 30 years and I also can't explain why people get better when I lay my hands on them, but they do.  I also have regular clients who have come back to me over the years for readings because I have proved to be very accurate in my advice.  Again, how can I prove that to the satisfaction of a scientist?

I passionately believe in the mind, body, spirit connection and have witnessed people being cured of life threatening diseases when doctors had run out of answers.  They cured themselves by taking care of their nutrition and dealing with the emotional reasons behind their illness.  One case in point is someone I saw when I was in Australia - she had a terminal disease similar to Leukemia and her doctor had given her 3 months to live.  We identified the emotional causes and last year I heard that she was still going strong - 10 years later.  How can that be explained?

Thanks

Sue