I too don't have vaccinations, but that is just my personal choice, not 'advice' and neither will anything else be that I chat about here!

PLEASE....Let us all be civil to each other here, regardless of opinion and I welcome all rational thoughts from anyone.

I look to the real world for logical conclusions, as far as my limited knowledge and understandings allow:-

We have reached this far in our evolution largely without the wonderful world of man-made interventions.

Clean water, sufficient food and basic hygiene have probably been the largest contributors to improvement in health and longevity.

It appears that when man thinks he knows best ...nature 'smacks' him for his arrogance.

It would be very helpful if vaccines were independently assessed,their efficacy figures readily available and the 'breakthrough' rates published (This is the technical term used when vaccinated people go on to contract the disease for which the vaccine was intended to prevent)

If you know of where we can all find an easily understood source of this information I would be delighted to receive it!

A reliable system of reported adverse reactions to ALL medications would also be handy.

Perhaps, if all this information was clearly in the public domain, the public would be able to make a more valued judgment ....and perhaps, that is why it is not ? 

Have a civilized discussion...always, even with those you think are nuts... for whatever reason!:)

bamboo333:

Harradine,

I understand that as a scientist you feel the need to correct everybody in the way you have been trained as a scientist. The thing you have to understand is that many systems of alternative medicines couldn't give a toss about western science and have functioned without it for thousand of years.  I'm in the middle of an acupuncture BSc and I enjoy learning western sciences, especially as they are now starting to find scientific explanations for the way our treatments work. But it pisses me off when bigheaded scientists like you (and my physiology teacher) think they know it all. For me you guys are like big children playing with all your important theories that promise to save the world when in reality they are achieving nothing of significance for alot of people who really need help.

Quantum science and knowledge of systems like the ECM are touching on what the Chinese and Indians have known for thousands of years. If you look more into that you would have more understanding for our way of thinking and we one day might get the respect we deserve.

I think you should do a degree in an eastern science or just go to a mediation retreat before you make more nasty comments about any person on this forum, might chill you out a bit. You need it my brother!!

Miro

Oh Lordy, an acupuncture "BSc".  There's a contradiction in terms.  I wonder if you're learning enough science on your course to understand that there is no such thing as western science, eastern science, alternative science, etc.  There is just science- its a system and you either use it or you don't.  If you don't use its methods (which acupunture does not), then its not science, its something else. 

Nor it science a job, a profession or a political stance.  Its simply a method.  Its the method that gave us clean water, sanitation and abundant food. 

It also gave us quantum physics and the standard model, which have never been mentioned by Eastern philosophy, although this is a very commion claim (find me where chinese or indian thinkers derived the Duraq equation, equations for wave-particle duality, Schrodinger's equations, etc, etc). The ancient eastern philosphies, although facinating in their own right, have nothing in common wioth quantum physics on anything other than a symbolic level.   

Its not my aim to educate anyone on this forum.  I would never be so bold.  It has only even been, and will remain, my aim to question direct statments made here in a spirt of skeptical inquiry.  That spirit on the one hand appears to be present here in abundance, but attacked agressively if used to questions wild unsubstanitated statments made here.

You never have to trust a word a scientist says-in fact, no good scientist will ever expect you to (a politican will, and alternative health practicioner will, but a scientist wont).  They will present you with evidence, invite you to dismantle it, tear it apart and test it to destruction over and over again, during the course of their entire life if need be and only if you cannot, will they feel satisfied that perhaps they may be correct.

So I have no problem with having evidence torn apart, or being asked for it.  I had no idea asking people for evidence and questioning their statments was considered offensive.  Its second nature to me and something I both perform and face every day.  And speaking of ad himinen attacks, I have lost count of the number of times I have been accused on this forum of being tainted, an agent of big pharma, a pharma 'troll' etc simply because I express a view that is very much against the 'status quo' here.  That is ad hominen attack (mind you, so is calling someone insane, so apologies again!!)

Phew! I know your Brits are known for your stiff upper lips, and I was starting to feel like mine were flapping re my reaction to Harradine's sneering. But suddenly others have been stung into action and he should consider himself thoroughly chastised by now. I've realised that there's no use in simply reacting to his attitude because that provokes his favourite pastime - arguing - and you've all hit him with facts, especially Errol Flynn .. fantastic compilation.

I found another on - YouTube:Swine Flu Man Made 4/28/09 - with an interview with reporter Wayne Madsen who says there's now proof that no single vaccine will work with this flu because it has four different components to it. Worth listening to. I also saw a 10 minute clip on massive 'concentration' camps set up for containing quarantined people - but suddenly that one seems to have been pulled as I went in again just now and it's blanked. Its title was Emergency - and mentioned FERMA trains - miles of carriages just sitting, waiting for human cattle, it seemed. 

My brother's sending me an iZap, his version of a virus zapper and that, coupled with my BodyTalk techniques should see me right. I feel very sorry for those who don't know anything other than the medical line and it doesn't look like world governments are going to change their attitude towards buying these vaccines. All people can do is exercise their democratic right and refuse the orders of elected officials, reminding them that after they've been voted out of office they'll just be Joe Bloggs in the street again and maybe they should be very careful in what they do.... I'm so glad I'm not American at this point, however. Keep the information flowing.... 

I highly recommend everyone read and watch this and then tell the authorities to shove their swine flu vaccine:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/07/23/Journalist-Accuses-WHO-of-Plan-to-Commit-Mass-Murder.aspx

Robin

KiwiGal:

Phew! I know your Brits are known for your stiff upper lips, and I was starting to feel like mine were flapping re my reaction to Harradine's sneering. But suddenly others have been stung into action and he should consider himself thoroughly chastised by now. I've realised that there's no use in simply reacting to his attitude because that provokes his favourite pastime - arguing - and you've all hit him with facts, especially Errol Flynn .. fantastic compilation.

I found another on - YouTube:Swine Flu Man Made 4/28/09 - with an interview with reporter Wayne Madsen who says there's now proof that no single vaccine will work with this flu because it has four different components to it. Worth listening to. I also saw a 10 minute clip on massive 'concentration' camps set up for containing quarantined people - but suddenly that one seems to have been pulled as I went in again just now and it's blanked. Its title was Emergency - and mentioned FERMA trains - miles of carriages just sitting, waiting for human cattle, it seemed. 

My brother's sending me an iZap, his version of a virus zapper and that, coupled with my BodyTalk techniques should see me right. I feel very sorry for those who don't know anything other than the medical line and it doesn't look like world governments are going to change their attitude towards buying these vaccines. All people can do is exercise their democratic right and refuse the orders of elected officials, reminding them that after they've been voted out of office they'll just be Joe Bloggs in the street again and maybe they should be very careful in what they do.... I'm so glad I'm not American at this point, however. Keep the information flowing.... 

I'm not sure how many more languages I can say it in or ways I can say it- I am not arguing- I am only asking for evidence.   If asking for evidence is seen as a belligerent stance, then I am obviously dealing in another world. 

Death camps.  Evidence...?  Like all good ideas, there is no argument.  Either it happens, or it doesn't. When can we expect your predicted death camps by?  September?  November?  And if not, will you admit 'maybe I got it wrong'?  

By God, if you are right and I am wrong by then, I will admit it publicly and fully decline anything I have said.  If it doesn't happen- will you?   And there  in lies the difference... I am prepared to back down if proven wrong... So prove me wrong.  Death camps?  That's what you predicted-specifically..  When?

All the while using the internet: That's a product of minds fully trained in science.  If you don't like science, then don't use its products- the internet being just one of many of them.

hi

i am now on day 6 of the flu i still feel rotten but no worse then i did 9yrs ago which was the last time i had flu.

i have only used tyme and honey as atea, tyme cream on my chest, liquid silver , and white willow tintrue for tempertrue

and plenty of sleep no choice about that , the cough is tireing , but the glands have come down the throat isent sore any more so even though i still feel rotten things are getting better , i have underline health problem as well , and aint pushing up daisys yet , so people out there dont be panicked in to taking flu vacines and tablets think it through way up the the risks ,

Thanks tdmiles.  I hope you are soon feeling heaps better.

Sue 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swDpWNKB5Co&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fhome.php%3Fref%3Dhome%26__a%3D1&feature=player_embedded

You guys doing 'degrees' in acupuncture, homeopathy or chiropractic?  You are aware its a load of old nonsense?  If not, then have a very long word!!!

Funny how its always the really crappy unis that offer those courses..  Really crappy unis, get bums on seat type ones...I wonder why the really good uni's don't teach that pap.   Cambridge, UCL, Oxford, MIT, etc? 

Maybe, God forbid, there's a reason!?  Maybe there's a reason why bright people don't have time for, listen to, accept or swallow excrement!

I'm sorry Sue I really didn't mean to offend you dear.

There is nothing at all wrong with degrees in any of the subjects I mentioned.  What I object to is calling those degrees 'Bachelor of Science' qualifications.  They aren't.  This is not closed mindedness or bias.  Its cold hard truth.

If a University offered a BA in History which taught that there had been no second world war, no holocost or no Queen Victoria, you would not be closed minded to hail this as a fraud.  If an institution decided to teach that the World was flat as part of a geography degree, you would not be closed minded to think this incorrect. 

And if someone stood up and took those false degrees to task, you would not consider that voice offensive or closed minded.

If a maths teacher taught you that 2 +2 =4 in one class, but 2+2=5 in another, 'alternative' class, it would not be considered narrow minded to question this logic.  Quite the contrary, it would be considered naive not to question it.

.

Harradine - I'm sure you have offended me much less than you've offended the people who have spent their hard earned cash to pay for the courses which you have dismissed out of hand.

Yes, there are questionable degrees out there, I understand that but can you honestly see the top universities breaking with tradition to incorporate acupuncture etc?  I am open to being corrected if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that these institutions are run by a privileged few who are steeped in tradition and the "old boy's network".  Academia is a very closed system and, I would say, quite often out of touch with the life most of us live.  There is a tremendous amount of snobbery which attaches itself to this way of life.  

I had the experience some years ago of working for a short time in one of the main cancer research institutions.  There was a woman working with me who had been ill for a long time - to be honest, I don't remember what was wrong with her, but more to the point the doctors didn't know either and she didn't know what to do next.  I suggested seeing a naturopath or homeopath which she did - she started to feel a lot better.  She worked for 2 senior surgeons that specialised in cancer care and told them about her naturopath experience.  Their reaction was very disparaging - a "well it can't do you any harm" kind of attitude.  Because she looked on these two men as kind of gods, she lost all faith in the natural healing method that was working for her and stopped taking it and her health went backwards again.  The fact that this method was working for her was secondary to these two men - as far as they were concerned, their way was the only way - forget the patient.  They weren't unkind people, just narrow minded.

I would welcome the demise of "be a Shaman in 2 weekends" and "be a Hypnotist by correspondence course" degrees so that students can get the best education in these very laudable professions.  What I have less faith in is the people who have the power to make the changes actually making them.  Now, if anyone out there can truthfully tell me that I'm wrong in my assumptions then I would be absolutely delighted to be proved wrong.

Sue 

Hi Sue

You won't stop this shining example of a scientific mind: all we can do is pretend he doesn't exist. But I wonder if he knows that the Royal Family lives to a great age because they've always used an homeopathic doctor...!

I've been looking for the information on how many scientists cheat on their findings to placate the pharmaceutical companies who pay them, but I think I binned it. I do remember that 46% have admitted to fudging results. Honourable profession, that.

And here's what I've gleaned from various sources already:
Pharmaceutical giant Pfizer has agreed to pay $75 million to settle a class action lawsuit filed against it by Nigerian parents who claim the company caused harm to their children by using them as guinea pigs in a nonconsensual, unlicensed drug trial.

The case began in 1996, when Pfizer needed a human trial to gain approval for its new antibiotic Trovan. When an epidemic of meningitis, cholera and measles broke out in Kano, Nigeria, the company quickly put together a research team and flew them to that country. Pfizer set up a tent right near the medical station where Doctors Without Borders were giving free treatments and recruited 200 children to participate in an unlicensed drug trial.

Parents say they were not told that proven medications were being distributed only yards away, that their children were being enrolled in a drug trial, or that animal studies had suggested that Trovan could cause liver and joint damage.

Eleven of the 200 children in the study died, and parents claim that others suffered from brain damage, organ failure and other severe side effects.

The case broke when Pfizer researcher Juan Walterspiel, who had been schedule to take part in the trial but was left behind, wrote a letter to Pfizer's then chief executive William Steere, saying that the Kano study was "in violation of ethical rules."

"Some of the children were in critical condition and most of them malnourished, which made oral absorption even more unpredictable," he wrote. "At least one died after a single oral dose."

Class action lawsuits were filed against the company in a variety of jurisdictions in Kenya and the United States, while various levels of the Nigerian government also filed their own lawsuits against the company.

The current settlement comes in a class action suit filed in Nigeria. In addition to a pending class action suit in the United States, Pfizer may still face criminal prosecution in Nigeria. In January 2008, a Nigerian judge issued arrest warrants for several top company officials after they failed to appear in court.

Sources for this story include: www.independent.co.uk. 

And:
The agency that licenses medicines in Britain has received 150 reports of suspected adverse reactions to the Tamiflu treatment for swine flu.

Sue,my experience of academia is not quite like that.  The actual course content of science degrees is based on standards.  It is not set by a stuffy old boys network, but by the most cutting edge researchers in each subject (you know they are doing cutting edge research if they are at a very good institution quite simply because so many people want to work there, it can be selective only hire the best).  The leading researchers set the content based on what we currently know both historically and right up to the moment.  The further down the 'food chain' of universities you go, the more the course content relies on historical information and the less it focuses on up to the minute thinking.

The actual admissions policy of universities like Oxford and Cambridge might be a bit out of touch and not enough students from working class background make it.  But this actually says much more about unfairness in the school system than universities- they can only take the brightest students and that tends to be those who have gone to the best schools. 

But this is quite a separate issue from maintaining standards in what is taught.  Its not a stuffy old boys network that stops homeopathy being taught at a leading university as a science degree (note, there would be nothing wrong with learning about homeopathy out of anthropological or historical interest.  The problem arises when you call it science).

The examples I gave are very relevant.  The theory of the flat earth is no longer taught in geography as fact, even though that is ancient knowledge, passed down over generations and held for many years.  It is also wrong and demonstrable so, so a university that would teach like that would quite rightly be a target for criticism.  Some people might very much believe the earth is flat and wish this to be included in all geography lessons.  But you understand why that wish should not be accommodated.

My heart goes out to people who have spent money studying for what they were told was a bachelor of science degree only to be taught medieval ideas like vital forces and healing energies- which sound like science in the same way flat earth uses the word earth, so it must be geography.  As long as students go in with their eyes open that these are not science degrees, then at least they have not been mislead.  But it is disingenuous and completely false to call these Bachelor of Science degrees. 

This really isn't about whether or not you believe homeopathy, etc work or not.  I have my views on that and other people have theirs.  My point here is that these are not scientific courses and do not offer scientific knowledge, do not use its methods and in some cases claim ideas that are incomparable with science. 

By the way I believe UCL offers a Master of Science course in applied hypnosis for anyone suitably qualified to take it (medical practitioners, clinical psychologists etc).  This is perfectly legitimate science.  Sadly not available by correspondence though!!!

Hi KiwiGal.  Who wouldn't want to go to a top university?   Good point.  Who wants to learn?  Certainly not everyone.  I am the first from my entire family line for example.  But lets take that to its logical (or it that as dirty word too?) conclusion.

Just how far should anti-knowledge go?  Should we stop at universities or should we not go to school either? If so, the next few decades would certainly be interesting.  It would be fun to see what would happen should all the most educated people in the world call a total strike and all those capable refuse to learn anything remotely involved with science or technology. 

Obviously, it wouldn't be a normal strike since they would have no demands to make.   Mankind has been there before and it can always go back there again.  If that really is the consensus view it probably will happen again.  It might be fun to regress for a while.  Think of the ancient Egyptians and Romans.  They certainly only kept progress going for a while, then regressed rapidly.  I think the process has already started, but should we maintain it until we go all the way back to the stone age, or would the dark ages be far enough?  Which period were we best off I wonder. 

When did we know most, live longest, maintain the highest global human population and travel to other celestial bodies? I guess I would rather see what would happen in hundred of years from now if we continue to progress, rather than go backwards.  And will any luck, we will get there. With all due respect KiwiGal, I don't imagine you will contribute a great deal towards that progress.  But hopefully you will continue to enjoy it just as you do now and such progress will made by others who embraced education for everyone, including you.  For example, are you communicating with me telepathically, or via the medium of cold, hard utterly conventional science-based internet?