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The science delusion

Richard Dawkins, Darwin's self-proclaimed rottweiler, has been turning his laser on what he calls the 'enemies of reason'.  These enemies are growing in number, and they are people - no doubt a little like us - who believe in 'unscientific' things such as alternative medicine.  As a result, we're slipping back into the Dark Ages and to a pre-rationalistic time when superstition, myth and folklore ruled.

Our one constant should be evidence and proof, and our guardian should be science, Dawkins believes.  Sadly, science is rarely pure, and evidence can come a poor second to belief, prejudice and, indeed, finance.  But scientists don't call it any of these things: instead, they call it a 'paradigm'.

I was thinking about these things while I was reading the life story of an extraordinary medical pioneer called Dr Emanuel Revici.  He died in 1998, believing his theories about cancer and treatment had been discredited, and his reputation in tatters.

And yet he was the first person to define lipids according to their molecular properties and activities, he was the first to use lipids in order to carry chemotherapy harmlessly around the body, he was the first to successfully treat cancer with high-dose selenium compounds, and he was a pioneer of the use of omega-3 for treating cancer.

He arrived in New York in 1947, and his treatment protocols had been blacklisted in 1961 by the American Cancer Society.  As a result, his book - in which he outlined his 40 years of research and therapy - sold hardly a copy, and the edition was destroyed.

In 1984, the New York State Health Department began proceedings to revoke his licence, and two malpractice suits were started against him.  Ultimately, their complaint against him was that his therapeutic approach "departed radically from community practice", another term for the paradigm, this time of chemotherapy and radiotherapy.

The National Research Council had tried in the 1950s to evaluate Revici's work, but they claimed he was "difficult", and had set unrealistic expectations on the reviewing committee.  However, a re-reading of the transcripts reveals that Revici's therapy was complex and multi-factorial, and wasn't the single 'magic bullet' approach that medicine still clings to.  Another paradigm, in fact.

A year before he died - at the age of 102 - he regained his licence to practise medicine (and which had been taken away four years earlier).  Usually a doctor must apologise before his licence is returned, but speaking on Revici's behalf, Dr Burt Schoenbach told the hearing: "Why should Dr Revici apologise?  He was right on selenium and right on other lipid compounds he pioneered to treat cancer patients."

The enemies of reason were the scientists themselves.

Published 14 August 2007 17:38 by Bryan Hubbard

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Austin said:

This is a very specific story, that does not normally apply.

August 17, 2007 09:51
 

acevans said:

Austin - The point is science makes mistakes because it is a construct of a human mind and therefore prone to all the failings of a human being. Greed, Fear, Jealousy, megalomania, egocentricity. Scientists are not automatons. From my point of view science is no better than any other religion where the congegation clings to dogma dictated by the church leaders. I see the behaviour of the science community as no different to the behaviour of the christian church in the dark ages. Science is a very powerful tool and looks just like God we humans only have the capacity to see very small portions of it and when we do we jump on it like it is the whole picture.

When we humans decide we know what the world looks like we close our minds off to the reality, which is that it is a whole lot more complex than we could ever imagine. Science is essential, so is religion.

Just my thoughts as a human being.

August 18, 2007 09:05
 

Jessica Lawrence said:

I find that Richard Dawkins is extremely idealistic in his (mis?)perceptions about science. In most drug "studies" the drugs are tested on heathly young individuals with no known health problems yet they are presribed to elderly and sick people with multiple illnesses who are taking a myriad of other drugs.  It is not possible to apply much of the prior research to the situations in which the drugs are used. Hence the farce/tragedy at Northwick Park Hospital when the drugs were passed for approval for the next stage of research which was on healthy males, and that clinical trial ruined their lives.

There are so many developments of beneficial medical treatment, based not on the clinical trials that Dawkins upholds as the only reliable criteria, but on reasoned ideas and theories gleaned by observation and intelligent deduction.

For example: Barry Marshall was a practicing physician with virtually no research experience, and he became convinced in the mid-1980s that peptic ulcers were caused by a bacteria called Helicobacter pylori. When he presented this heretical notion at a 1983 conference of experts in Brussels, he was all but laughed off the podium.

And: Dr. Jonas Salk created a "miracle" — he developed an effective polio vaccine, and within just a few years, polio nearly disappeared. Jonas Salk was shunned, insulted, and treated like an outcast by the medical establishment, both before and after his research breakthrough. He dared to challenge conventional wisdom, which maintained that vaccines should be made with weakened (attenuated, but still live) strains of the virus they were meant to prevent. Yet, Dr. Salk proved that a "dead virus" vaccine was effective. Worse, Salk was an unknown, not a recognized "top scientist." Dr. Salk was forced to raise funds to construct what became the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in California and he worked there until his death at age eighty.

And this is some of the advice that past "scientists" have given people:

In the 1950's, the American Medical Association reported that smoking was not a health problem and could be beneficial. In the 1960's they advised their patients to smoke moderately. Remember the ads in the media telling us that more doctors smoke a certain brand?

About 200 years ago, in response to a severe sore throat, chills, fever, and difficulty breathing, the doctors gave George Washington the best treatment of the day. This included bleeding him (taking about half of his blood). Benjamin Rush, MD (1745-1813), considered the "Father of American Medicine," asserted that physicians who did not bloodlet their patients were quacks. George Washington had survived smallpox and malaria and was exposed to tuberculosis and the wrath of the British army, but then met his last enemy, modern medicine.

When I was a practising nurse in the US in the 70s, many women were being given hysterectomies unnecessarily. A hysterectomy was the answer to: heavy menstrual bleeding; discomfort; small fibroids; ovarian cysts; irregular periods etc. If you were 40 or over, they whipped out your ovaries like an appendix and you were told you were being done a favour.  So many women suffered from this barbaric practice. Yet the "experts" had many "proven" and "scientific" reasons for castrating you.  

"Each year 750,000 hysterectomies are performed and 2,500 women die during the operation. These are not sick women, but healthy women who go into the hospital and do not come out," says Dr. Herbert Goldfarb, a gynecologist and assistant clinical professor at New York University's School of Medicine, in Null's Woman's Encyclopedia Of Natural Healing. "

I think that Dawkins is in fact, just as delusional about the way conventional medicine is practiced as the "fake" alternative medicines he attempts to discredit.

August 23, 2007 22:24
 

Jennings said:

I wonder what Dawkin's would say about an experience that I had which manifestly cannot be replicated nor proved. My late wife of 45 years of togetherness passed away with BC 9 years ago. Two months after her passing, as I was sitting relaxing on my own in an easy chair at home, I felt this external pressure move from the top of my head to my shoulders when my late wife's voice came through. This is what was said, "I have come to say good bye. I have to move on. Louise (our granddaughter who passed away 22 months earlier) has moved on. Your friends (we tended to except that we had a spiritual connection whom we called our friends) who have always looked after you, will continue to dos so". I am not about to further elaborate on this incident but it was real yet who is likely to believe? I have had other interesting experiences throughout my life like, for example, having seen two apparititions but Dr Blackmore, who sets herself up as an authority on such matters,  and Dr Dawkins, will undoubtedly try to convince me that my mind was playing some kind of trick; I wonder how anyone can deny such experiences when they themselves have not experienced them nor can prove nor disprove them? That's about as far as science has advanced; it is still knee-deep in the primordial mud! All that it does is jargonise folk-lore.

August 24, 2007 00:34
 

joboemoco said:

richard dawkins again, bless him. it must be hard to be a flatearther in today's speed of acceleration. as you've guessed i'm one of 'them'. i feel science is really important (obvious) but for what we can learn, which is why they are called theories, to try & stop the ego from getting in front of itself & thinking we've discovered the absolute. this is when it all gets into trouble. all the great metaphysicians throughout the ages have all, at the end of their lives, said that they what they know is nothing compared to the vastness of the reality. THAT to me is wisdom. let us pray for our friend & fellow traveller, & maybe we can shift him with love & compassion. jo.

August 25, 2007 23:28
 

Jennings said:

Jo, shift him to where? A quick exit to the 'otherside' possibly? When he does eventually arrive at this diestination what will he mostly likely say? Something like, "Oops, I've made a mistake"! Too late, old man!

August 26, 2007 15:48
 

Jennings said:

PS Re word 'destination' above; must get myself stronger focals!

August 26, 2007 15:51
 

Jane Davidson said:

Isn't Richard Dawkins trying to promote scientific method, not scientists themselves?

Scientists often can and have been wrong about their theories and fall into the same trap as non-scientists sometimes do - they are human after all! But the whole point of Dawkins' argument is that scientific METHOD should be upheld.

Reason should be the only criterion for taking something to be true or false. This applies both to alternative medicine and conventional medicine alike. Dogmatically holding on to a belief that X works without questioning it in a reasoned manner does put us back in the dark ages and can do serious harm. In reasoning something through we might still get it wrong, and often do, as improvements in science have shown us countless times with hindsight. However, reason is the best tool we have to discover the truth and in bypassing it we do less than we can and should.

Dawkins is not telling us what to believe in but HOW to believe. Those representatives of alternative therapies that Dawkins questions in his show fail to provide the viewer with reasonable arguments as to why we should believe in these therapies. But they also don't exhaust the arguments in favour of alternative therapies and so the outcome of Dawkins' show comes across as rather one-sided. Nonetheless, Dawkins makes us think about what we believe in and more importantly, why. His argument is not so much an attack on alternative therapies as it is an attack on believing in something without well reasoned justification.

If, on the other hand, you feel that you do have reasonable justification to believe in homeopathy/astrology etc. and you feel satisfied that your reasons can't be counteracted by other available evidence, and realise too that belief and reasoning are an on-going process that demand constant re-evaluation and consideration as new evidence comes to light, then you have no reason to feel threatened by Dawkins and may instead feel supported by his arguments.

August 27, 2007 18:02
 

Jennings said:

Jane, I would imagine that no one disputes the thrust of your argument but having read Dawkin's and listened to him he seems to suffer from intellectual myopia and  lacking in perception and has a pious attitude towards his beliefs. I recognise that he does not believe in religion and neither do I, but, he seems also to disbelieve that there may not exist a spiritual side to life simply on the basis that it cannot be scientifically proved while the mechanics of life can and it's on issues such as this that I part company with him. It would be the ideal if all that humanity desired to believe could be proven beyond doubt but this cherished desire is as far away as the moon. For example, at one stage I suffered severely from a prolapsed lumbar disc which pained considerably and I could not stand upright nor walk. My first wife, who had faith in what is generally termed spiritual healing, placed her hand just above the small of my back. The sensation felt could best be described as a sense of power (of some description) being drawn up towards her hand. This was accompanied by another sensation as if all the sinews of my back were being drawn towards this hand point. The best way I can describe it would be like plucking a spider's web were all the structure of the web can be stretched towards the point of plucking. Within 20 minutes of this healing I was cured and was back to the perpendicular and mobile without any further discomfort nor setback. This has not been the sole occasion that I have experienced this kind of healing but the paradox is that it is not easily repeatable and therefore confuses the scientific mind which then assumes the position of the divine and denies that such can exist. It is recognised that there are many charlatans in the field of alternative and complimentary medicines but probably no more than exists in any other field of study and particularly in the cloisters of academe. Had scientific research been effective why then would there be a need for this Internet site? Academe survives on what folk-lore feeds it. It is like a self-congratulating leech that sucks the wisdom of society. It might be helpful but it is also a hindrance.

August 28, 2007 04:01
 

Arthur Bailey said:

I am by profession an engineering scientist yet I discovered some forty years ago that dowsing (water divining) actually worked. I investigated it thoroughly and the more I looked into it the more concerned I became. There is no doubt about it, dowsing is a fact and I did a double blind test that succeeded way way beyond statistical chance - millions to one against chance. I then got deeper and deeper into the realms of the "impossible". I discovered that map dowsing worked. I met the late Major Bruce McManaway and discovered that I could heal with my hands. A very early success was with someone who had been deaf for twenty years - he had ridden his bicycly into a lorry and had badly fractured his skull. His hearing nerves were irreparably damaged. My fingers picked up the old fracture lines in his skull and I followed where the tingling was greatest. This led down to both of his ears, following the nerve paths. After two visits his hearing was recovering and finally he recovered some 60% hearing in the ear that had been completely deaf. The other ear came back to nearly normal.

Later on I worked with a meditation teacher, the late John Garrie, and on his workshops experienced (without any drugs) some amazing transcendental experiences.

The problem with people like Richard Dawkins is that they work from theories "It does not fit with scientific theories - therefore it cannot exist". This is putting science on its head. Science should be about investigating this amazing universe - not viewing it through the eyes of dogma, scientific or religious.

Before we criticise the ways of others we need to put ourselves through the mill of experience. Richard Dawkin criticising alternative medicine and religious beliefs is as valid as my criticising his work in astronomy (which I know little about and have no practical experience of).

I am sure that the real problem is that even suspecting that there may be other realms of reality that man can experience makes some people feel very insecure. I am sure that that is the basis of Professor Dawkins religious-type fervour.

No, the human totality can transcend both time and space. I know that from my own experiences. I also know that this is very challenging to people who have a purely materialistic philosophy based on opinion and not experience.

September 18, 2007 22:33
 

Harradine said:

There's not much point in criticising Dawkins or any other indivdual.  Even worse, to criticise the scientific method just demonstrates ignorance of what it is.   That's hardly surprising, most people have no way of knowling what science actually is because there only introduction to it is via the media, which doesn't understand it either.

Rather than critise Dawkins, just think about what it is he suggests:  Provide evidence to support what you say.  It is not an easy thing to do, and a very difficult thing to do well.  But its important to decide whether one's beleif as rational (based on a prerequisite for evidence) or irrational (not requiring evidence or refuting it when it contradcits your beliefs).  If you admit to being irrational, then back away slowly from rational debate.  Irrational beliefs belong in the dark ages.

November 4, 2007 15:58
 

whale said:

Dawkins http://www.whale.to/a/dawkins_h.html

Allopathy has to reply on atheism to sell the lie nature can't do medicine.  His promotion of allopathy and attack on homeopathy is blatant allopathic propaganda that we see from the likes of Ben Goldacre.  Allopathy has yet to cure anything aprt from bacterial infections, and he avoids things like Vitamin C cure for infections, known for 50 years, with 1,200 scientific references to back it up.  pathetic really, but par for the course from Satan's Vicar.

And anyone with spiritual experience can see the Dawkins game---attack the religious people who don't have any.  And avoid the mystics, shamans etc like John lilly.

November 23, 2007 12:45
 

Harradine said:

Whale, Do you really think that allopaths have some agenda to promote propoganda?  

I'll tell you what it is in Dawkins case- he intellectual requirment for evidence to support all things.  His dislike for anyone who holds irrational, unreasonable beleifs.  

Why don't you actually join the beate and lets dicsuss some evidence instead of attacking people and suggesting they are all part of some big scary club?  Wouldn't that be more, well.. grown up?

November 25, 2007 14:56
 

whale said:

Allopathy would die without propaganda (aka mind control), it is the only thing that holds it up, I collect the propaganda ploys http://www.whale.to/m/map.html

You need it to hide some nasty facts, like the Allopathic monopoly http://www.whale.to/a/allopathy_h.html

Allopathic hoaxes like vaccination http://www.whale.to/a/hoaxmed.html

Dawkins, just another propagandist for the lie of Atheism, a very important part of Allopathy.  So he is, in effect, propping up Fascist medicine.  His pathetic attacks on religious people, homeopathy, dowsing etc leave him open.  If he likes to dish it out.

"To teach the Rockefeller drug ideology, it is necessary to teach that Nature didn't know what she was doing when she made the human body.-------Hans Ruesch

It is very grown up to point out the mind control, the Matrix of Fascism.

"But today in the United States, and this shows you where fascism REALLY exists, ANY doctor in the United States who cures cancer using alternative methods will be destroyed. You cannot name me a doctor doing well with cancer using alternative therapies that is not under attack. And I KNOW these people; I've interviewed them."---Gary Null (1994) http://www.whale.to/a/null3.html

November 25, 2007 16:19
 

harradine said:

There is a very good reason why Doctors would be in trouble if the began using homeopathy right now- it doesn't work.  If you use homeopathy for example, to protect you against tropical diseases, then you wont be protected frm any of those diseases and may well contract one.  The Doctors job is not to try out purified water, unless there is some good evidence that it does work and then then should use it, of course.  

What does Atheism have to do with evidence based medicine, allopathy, in your view?  What is the connection there?

I don't think Dawkins attack are pathetic.  To me he seems to ask for evidence from people who become terrible offended when you ask them for it.  He's a scientist- there job is to ask people for evidence.  They do it all day every day.  That's what science is.  Research and experiment are the means of providing evidence.  

November 25, 2007 18:07
 

whale said:

Of course you don't, you both use the same hymnsheet.

"There is a very good reason why Doctors would be in trouble if the began using homeopathy right now- it doesn't work. "

The real reason Allopaths can't use homeopathy is because it isn't Allopathic medicine.

having said that my GP will advise on homeopathic remedies, and numerous MDs use homeopathy, the best example being http://www.whale.to/v/elmiger2.html http://www.whale.to/vaccines/moskowitz.html

My local one did 4 years Allopathic training before he saw it was useless and changed camp.

"What does Atheism have to do with evidence based medicine, allopathy, in your view?  What is the connection there?"

If it was 'evidence based medicine' you wouldn't need to say it all the time, that is basic propagnada --repetition http://www.whale.to/vaccine/repetition.html.  Like 'vaccine preventable disease'

With atheism you can get people to believe in any old thing, like Allopathy covertly http://www.whale.to/vaccines/god.html

then they will easily believe herbs are useless in their natural state and need tweaking by pharma barons, when the exact opposite is true, and they need protecting by the robber pharma barons through vaccines etc

and Atheism is the main wall that Big Brother hides behind---if there is no God then there is no Devil, which is his main defence, invisibility.  http://www.whale.to/b/atheism.html

it is quite a pointer to the true nature of allopathy that is has absolutely no spiritual pretensions whatsoever.  No soul, souless.  No conscience.  Psychopathy. http://www.whale.to/b/psychopaths_h.html

and the main creator of Allopathy, JDR, was one, no suprise there.  

November 25, 2007 19:22
 

Harradine said:

So the problem isn't medicine now, its atheism?

Atheism makes people beleive in any old thing?  You mean like Organite, horoscopes, etc?  

Too right medicine shouldn't have spirtual pretensions!!  I don't want my surgeon to pray for me, I want them to get the operation done well!  

Religion in medicine would be a complete betrayal of enlightenment ideals.  You might be stuck in the 1800s Whale, but many people are not and have left you behind there.  Enlightenment ideals have existed long before a pharmaceutical industry!

November 28, 2007 20:44
 

whale said:

"Too right medicine shouldn't have spirtual pretensions!!  I don't want my surgeon to pray for me, I want them to get the operation done well!  Religion in medicine would be a complete betrayal of enlightenment ideals."

Spoken like a true atheistic allopath.

Allopathy and spirituality are mutually exclusive.  Spirituality, essentially, is the love of truth, allopathy is the love/worship of power, money, and Baal.

Religion is something else, tradionally used to control people and block off any access to Spirit.  You can see the level of control when Billy Graham, for example, was a a 33 degree Mason.  Masonry worships Baal or Lucifer (at the top) http://www.whale.to/b/knight.html

Basic religions such as the Bible belt lot are textbook examples of good mind control, as is Catholicism as Bill Schnoebelen exposes so well.  

Spiritual people with real spiritual knowledge or wisdom are called mystics, shamans, yogis, not Vicars, Bishops, and Popes.

If your medicine had any spiritual pretensions it wouldn't be using surgery http://www.whale.to/m/quotes20.html#Heart_bypass_(allopathy):_  for a heart nutritional deficiency http://www.whale.to/w/nutrition.html now would it?

Or butchering millions of women with needless hysterectomy.

" Enlightenment ideals"

LOL. I have had numerous enlightenments like Dharma-Megha Samadhi so I can tell you what the best Enlightenment ideal would be--the death of Allopathy, would be a good starter.  I am prepared to offer some of you menial work in cleaning hospitals like they should be cleaned.

I have seen things you wouldn't believe, like the true nature of Allopathy.  And I aim to meet Lucifer one day, on his one way trip back to hell.

"Atheism makes people beleive in any old thing?  You mean like Organite, horoscopes, etc? "

No, allopathy, vivisection, wars, & killing.  The big joke is the fact your Masters use astrology all the time, but they don't want the little people gaining power by using it.  No doubt you swallowed the lie as well.  James Randi is one employed to keep that sort of stuff suppressed.

Like with the occult, esp etc

"I said that was quite interesting. I asked the dean whether he had taken part in such rituals. He said yes, but declined to describe the ceremonies. He was essentially telling me that a secret society was the proper home for the paranormal. His attitude as I read it implied that the paranormal was THE PROPERTY of secret societies---and the great unwashed masses were barred from such knowledge. It was the first time I realized there might be more to the prejudice against paranormal research than meets the eye..."  For some people, so-called scientific opposition to allowing and funding paranormal research is merely a pose. These people are actually perverse mystics, and they want to protect their "monopoly" on the subject. They also want the kind of psychic control over others they think is possible through their ritualistic practices. THE PARANORMAL AND SECRET SOCIETIES ---JON RAPPOPORT http://www.whale.to/b/paranormal.html

LOL!  Yeah, don't use spirituality, astrology or orgonite, you couldn't handle the power anyway.

A bigger joke is the fact you idiots are going for the wrong power anyway http://www.whale.to/b/power_q.html  

November 28, 2007 21:34
 

Harradine said:

Whale,

Steady on now.  Are you saying that you beleive in astrology and orgonite?  So..let me get this right- you are a paranormalist who hands out health advise based on such thinking?

Yes, I am sure you have had many enlightenments.  I am taking about THE enlightenment. When mankind described the experimental, rational way of looking at the world (i.e. science).

You are starting to make more sense now to be fair.  I was unaware of the true wooliness of your thinking until now.  I don't have a problem with that at all, you beleive whatever makes sense to you. Good luck with that.

But you are passing on health advise as if it were fact.  Just as no doubt you think orgonite is based on fact (would you like to discuss evidence for against such powers?  There's no point, is there Whale?)  

So you see no room for surgery now?  None?  

I'm sorry Whale, didn't mean to upset you, I had no idea.  

Bless.

November 28, 2007 21:58
 

whale said:

You can tell when someone is on shaky ground---the patronising comes thick and fast.

I used to believe scientists were super intelligent until I looked into allopathy and realised it was mostly a load of bogus beliefs.  tI took about 10 years to completely take apart vaccination to my own satisfaction, till I got to the stage where I almost burst out laughing when someone says smallpox vaccine saved millions.

In fact the more scientists and allopaths I meet the more I realise the importance of emotional intelligence, and how easy it is to brainwash academic intelligent people, witness yourself.  In fact in a book on Hypnotism it says they are the easiest to hypnotise.

Because you just swallowed a package set of beliefs called allopathy, basic groupthink, you think I just swallowed a set of beliefs around orgonite or astrology.

In fact you are no better than the JW lot who think Jesus is going to come down and save just them.

I know all about believing as I used to be one also, I was vaccinated and vaccinated my first 2 kids.  I went to church, believed in politicians and politics, allopathy--I even believed cancer was incurable especially by herbs!  I remember the first time I saw an Essiac article and how I couldn't believe it.  And so on, I may even have believed in the lone gunman.

Believers like you can't understand people like me who are on the Path of Knowledge or Truth. http://www.whale.to/a/mission.html

"Truth is more important than public belief, and any man who feels the need to adjust his knowledge so as to receive public approval is a man unworthy of trust."--Toltec motto

You call yourself a scientist yet believe in vaccination (you ignored my measles death stat) and that drugs are going to cure degenerative disease when decades of evidence show otherwise, not to mention disease theory, and the mountain of evidence nutrients, herbs etc will cure these diseases.  I didn't just believe that I went out and read or looked at 700 books on medicine, met numerous herbal naturopaths etc.  before I was prepared to accept that truth.  I read all Shulze books, watched his 12 hour interview set, did a one day workshop with him, went to a day long lecture, consulted with a herbal naturopath, and so on.

You disbelieve in Orgonite as it is a belief of your Groupthink called Allopathy or its Boss--the Elite Groupthink.  Think NeoCons.  

You haven't done the slightest investigation into it, not a nanosecond, except to read the page so you can come along and appeal to peoples incredulity, and talk patronising.   There is still a part of me that thinks it is a hoax but I am having a real hard time proving that, I have spent 4 years giving the stuff away and testing it out and I have yet to have one person say anthing other than it is useful, that includes 2 psychics, and I met the 2 top energy sensitives in the movement (one an ex maths professor), one stayed with me for 3 months, as well as reading all Don Croft's articles and his book, and conversing with him about 100 times via e mail, I even had his handwritung analysed by the top one in this country.

As well as spending hours on at laest 3 orgonite forums over 4 years, and so on.

The biggest problem I have is finding out the motive of the group or person who created it.  Don doesn't make any money, he gave it away.  the only motive I can think of is to make us all look stupid sometime in the future?   Who the hell would do that?  

As to astrology, we know you haven't even looked at it as Richard Dawkins says it is bogus from some 'scientific' perspective.

I looke into Vedic astrology, even bough the programme and had my family done by an Indian Vedica astrologer, also read a bout 10 books on the subject, bought the set on medical astrology, and had a few draw dropping moments to make me realsie there was something to it.  can't say I have get much benefit out of it but just knowing it has some validity has some power.

And of course I now know why astrolgy is bunk, ever since I looked into allopathy and the ruling mind set.  It is politically unacceptable for the commone people to know too much useful knowledge.  the real problem with astrolgy to them is the fact it gives the game away about there being intelligent design to the Universe, ie that a God or Creator exists, and astrologist are real spritual people, generally speaking, so they don't want those sort gaining any power and swaying the masses with the truth.

But they use it all the time Goro Adachi is a big one of them http://www.goroadachi.com/etemenanki/

"So you see no room for surgery now?  None? "

Yes, not that for the money stuff though.

"I'm sorry Whale, didn't mean to upset you, I had no idea."

I am parent to to 7 kids, 4 past teenager now, so I have been trained by professional to not take offence.  You believers have absoultely no idea, that's true and you never will, but it is impossible to upset truth seekers, you can only upset believers.  

I spent years on the Fourth Way Path http://www.whale.to/b/fourth_way_h.html  I experienced God, so I know, so how could I be offended if anyone said I was a muppet for believing in God?  I just take pity on someone so ignorant, and who makes such an effort to reject personal power.

Likewise with orgonite.  If you want to reject personal power good luck mate, you will need it.  We just laugh at you and get on with it.

I don't have time to be offended, my self importance isn't that prominent at the moment.

"Self-importance is man's greatest enemy. What weakens him is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of his fellow men. Self-importance requires that one spend most of one's life offended by something or someone."--Don Juan

and you just rejected a cubic centre metre of chance, but that was a foregone conclusion.

"There is something you ought to be aware of by now. I call it the cubic centimeter of chance. All of us, whether or not we are warriors, have a cubic centimeter of chance that pops out in front of our eyes from time to time. The difference between an average man and a warrior is that the warrior is aware of this, and one of his tasks is to be alert, deliberately waiting, so that when his cubic centimeter pops out he has the necessary speed, the prowess to pick it up. Chance, good luck, personal power, or whatever you may call it, is a peculiar state of affairs. It is like a very small stick that comes out in front of us and invites us to pluck it. Usually we are too busy, or too preoccupied, or just too stupid and lazy to realize that that is our cubic centimeter of luck. A warrior, on the other hand, is always alert and tight and has the spring, the gumption necessary to grab it. "--Don Juan (Journey to Ixtlan)

November 29, 2007 06:54
 

Harradine said:

Say no more really Whale.

Science and allopathy are not the samething.  You (aggressively) use this label of allopathy 9even though you clearly don't understand it because the treatments you support are example of allopathy) then set about debunking it (badly) totally misunderstandingthat this is not what science is.  

You are paranoid also.  When someone questions your evidence (I did not ignore it, I questioned its validty and pointed out where it was flawed and incomplete), you do not counter this with further evidence, you take personal offence and hand out ad hominen attack, reducing the rationality of your argument still further.

I don't swallow any belief, quite the opposite. I persist always in the requirement for evidence.  That's what training in the nature of cause and effect gives you.  Not reading new age clap trap and buying into it hook line and sinker.  I get the distinct impression you have no formal education in science whatsoever, but yet discount its methods as if coming from a position of understanding them.  

Vedic astrology, orgonite, baal, etc.  I suppose from that world view, it would make sense to reduce science as just another one of these silly cults, (the fallacy of post-modernist thinking).  

Anyhow, I have no wish to argue with you about these matters.  If this spices up your life then, it is your life, have fun.  You obviously have an inquisitive mind at least and have chosen to study what you can.  What a pity you have chosen to fill it with such garbage.

November 29, 2007 16:42
 

whale said:

Spoken like a true pharma boy.

You don't have an argument, the one stat I threw at you, you ignored any came back with some stats from another continent!

The biggest hoax this century is vaccination not orgonite.

For a crime you need a motive and there isn't one with orgonite that I can find

Whereas there are quite a few with vaccination:

1. Professional http://www.whale.to/a/allopathy_h.html

2. Pecuniary a) Income and research http://www.whale.to/vaccines/money1.html

b) The vast income treating vaccine disease like asthma

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/diseases.html http://www.whale.to/a/vax_dis.html

3. Vaccine genocide http://www.whale.to/v/biowarfare.html

4.  Sterilisation http://www.whale.to/m/sterile.html

5. Mind control a) Baptism into Atheistic Church of Allopathy

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/god.html

b)  The propaganda value is incalculable.  The smalllpox saved millions lie http://www.whale.to/a/smallpox_hoax.html and vaccines are effective lie http://www.whale.to/a/lie_effective.html is what props up the rest of the pharma hoax, and lets  them get away with the evidence-based-medicine lie http://www.whale.to/a/evidence_based.html

6. Implants http://www.whale.to/b/vaccine_imp.html

Why Vaccination Continues by Guylaine Lanctot, M.D. covers a few more in more detail http://www.whale.to/vaccines/lanctot.html  

November 29, 2007 21:55
 

annie said:

I am a trained nurse, midwife, reflexologist, and aromatherapist. Have also trained as a colour therapist - a therapy which at first I thought was complete and utter rubbish, I was invited to take the course and reassured that if I still thought it rubbish at the end of the course I would pay nothing and go on my way.  During the course - which involves the laying on of hands and visualising the colour on the area to be treated - I saw with my own eyes the healing of conditions said to be incurable by the medical profession.  My own son who thinks my ideas are crazy has also had the pain of his fractured wrists completely eradicated in minutes with the application of this therapy without him having any knowledge that I was giving him the treatment.  I personally think that Richard Dawkins is delusional, full stop.

December 5, 2007 22:05
 

Harradine said:

That's very interesting Annie.  What sort of conditions said to be incurable by the medical profession have you seen this therapy heal?  

December 6, 2007 11:34
 

whale said:

Here is proof that gems have an effect http://www.whale.to/v/whale.html

gems are used in Ayurvedic medicine.

As for laying on of hands, this is energy medicine, and we have proved re alinging the bodies centre of energy cures some cases of depression  & http://www.whale.to/b/ap.html

which would kick most of psychiatry into touch if generally know.  

December 11, 2007 12:07
 

Harradine said:

Its actually quite depressing that grown ups are gullable to beleive that sort of thing.  People of reason must ask themselves, what on earth leads people down such an irrational path, giving up all ability to judge critically?

Instead regress into a primitive state where appealing ideas or internet testimony is considered "proof"?  Any criticism is met with aggression, personal attack, etc.  One could understand this mind set if the peddlar didn't believe it at all, but was just pretending to as a means to make a living by duping gullable, desperate people.  Understandable, but not acceptable.

But for people to fall for such mumbo jumbo is quite strange. Maybe its a need to find something interesting in life, who knows.  Whatever makes people happy I suppose, as long as they don't deceive people who genuine are ill.  Without evidence, lucky charms, spells, and rabbits do not constitute medicines.

December 11, 2007 14:28
 

whale said:

I love the pharma song, my wife and ex wife were both off to get anti-depressents and in 2 minutes of AP shifting they felt right as rain.  Kind of grabs your attention that, and my best friend was cured of ME and hardly being able to walk after another AP shift to centre http://www.whale.to/v/ap_int.html

That is 3 out of 3, not to mention Jon Whale's first shift, and my own, plus his 20 years clinical work, and so on.

 I would hate to live in your small pharma reality where you are going to end up, 3 in 1 chance, taking chemo or radiation and so on.

"You wouldn’t believe how many FDA officials or relatives or acquaintances of FDA officials come to see me as patients in Hanover. You wouldn’t believe this, or directors of the AMA, or ACA, or the presidents of orthodox cancer institutes. That’s the fact."---Hans Nieper.

Sitting on an alt med forum defending the medical monopoly and its 200 year butchery of the population.

December 11, 2007 19:38
 

Harradine said:

You mention three people being cured by a treatment.  But these are only 3 cases.  There may be thousands or millions of cases where such treatments do nothing, but you have not seen them, or choose to ignore them.  I'll be Jon Whale doesn't mention such cases often?  

If a drug company operated this way- found a handful of people who were "cured" after taking one of their medicines, and presented this as hard proof that their treatment is a cure, we would rightly expect them to provide far more extensive evidence before we would believe them.  The standard of evidence is set, no one should be exempt from it when claiming medical benefit.  

If a treatment works, it can easily be shown to work.  If AP shifting cures disease, then this can easily be demonstrated.  Your three cases might just the be tip of the iceberg, and they might just be flukes.  Proper testing would allow us to decide this.

I'm sure such treatments are harmless really.  The problem is if someone is really ill, but rather than use a treatment that is shown to work, they reject this on the advice of people who present 3 or 4 cases as proof, then use an untested treatment that might turn out to do nothing at all when they could have been saved or treated successfully.  That's the only danger really.  That the whole field of medicine regresses back to a time when anyone with a crazy idea could flog it to sick people with no evidence that it works.  

Most people who use alternatives rarely use them unless they have exhausted the conventional route, or if they have an illness which really isn't at all serious.  It is rare for people with serious illness to reject modern medicine outright and reach for the sort of treatments you promote.  This isn't becuase of some great conspiracy, its simply because most people have more sense.

I am not defending the medical establishment at all.  I am defending the principle of expecting people who make claims about health and medical treatment to be able to provide satisfactory evidence to support this.  You mentions 3 cases, that would not be acceptable evidence for any new treatment, so to be completely fair it isn't for your AP theory either.

I suggest before you fly off into paranoid rants about pharma conspiracies, ask your self- would you accept such a low standard of proof from a treatment that came from a drug manufacturer?  If not, why are you so easily duped by snake oil peddlars who tout magic and magical devices as cures for practically every disease under the sun?  Surely you can see the wholes in that position?

Its clear that you have a genuine loathing of drug companies.  Fair enough, you are not alone there.  But its sad to see that confused and twsited into a beleif in pretty much anything that isn't pharma, nomatter how fantastical and wild the claim!  

All one can conclude is that you base your medical treatment choices on a strong political ideology (anti-corporate, anti-establishment, conspiracist, that sort of thing), rather than, or even at the expense of, a requirement for strong evidence.  

December 12, 2007 10:23
 

whale said:

" Proper testing would allow us to decide this."

Allopathy can't use anything expcept pharma drugs and anything approved by pharma.  We have 100 years evidence to prove that eg just with cancer medicine http://www.whale.to/a/cancer_c.html

So to suggest that allopathy would conduct 'proper testing' is absurd.  It is completely outisde your field of knowledge anyway.  We will carry on like we have always done, outside the medical monopoly, testi9ng, curing etc, for anyone who is interested.

"All one can conclude is that you base your medical treatment choices on a strong political ideology (anti-corporate, anti-establishment, conspiracist, that sort of thing), rather than, or even at the expense of, a requirement for strong evidence."

Once again you just see yourself in others, but nice to get it from the horses mouth.  Politics has absolutely no part on what I do, its called TRUTH, which is above politics obviously.  It is obvious you have to spend your life playing politics, to hide the truth of the situation--a monopoly based on money.  Just like the usual sort of politicians dance their fandago to hide the fact we are living in a one party Corporate  state known in the past as Fascism. http://www.whale.to/a/fascism_h.html

I am the REAL skeptic, if I wasn't I would have swallowed allopathy, now wouldn't I?  You love to create the illusion that we believe any old thing, any old mumbo jumbo.  Well, truth doesn't allow that, but since you are a stranger to truth, you wouldn't know that.  You think we want to spend £80 consulting a homeopath when we can go to an Allopath for free?  I wish I had the money to chuck away that you seem to think i have.

"I suggest before you fly off into paranoid rants about pharma conspiracies, ask your self- would you accept such a low standard of proof from a treatment that came from a drug manufacturer?  If not, why are you so easily duped by snake oil peddlars who tout magic and magical devices as cures for practically every disease under the sun?  Surely you can see the wholes in that position?"

Mild paranoia is a just self awareness given the well documented attempts to kill us all off http://www.whale.to/b/covert_q.html

But ad hominem noted.  As I said before I used to believe in your snake oil, but the truth got in the way.  That truth was your pharma conspiracy with your useless snake oil that made us all think most disease was incurable, with your symptom palliating crap you call medicine.

"Truth is more important than public belief, and any man who feels the need to adjust his knowledge so as to receive public approval is a man unworthy of trust."--Toltec motto

December 12, 2007 18:29
 

Harradine said:

No, Whale politics is not my game.  Science is.  You are making claims that can easily be tested.  They just either haven't been, or have been and proven to be false.  

You say that to test orgonite would be "outside my field of knowlegde".  Determining cause and effect is bang square in my field of knowlegde.  There are many ways such health claims could be tested.  Very easily and cheaply infact.

Would I wouldn't do is go on an internet forum, read that is works, then decide that's good enough for me!  

But if there is some special way to test that orgonite cures everything from cancer to hiccups that you know about, what is it?

January 3, 2008 16:59

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